Growing with Tonya Surman, Centre for Social Innovation (CSI)
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In this episode of the Growth for Good podcast, host Daniel Francavilla engages in a conversation with guest Tonya Surman, the CEO of the Centre for Social Innovation. The episode explores the world of social entrepreneurship and the power of creating spaces for collaboration and innovation.
Tonya begins by sharing her personal journey and how she became involved in the social impact sector. She emphasizes the importance of finding purpose and meaning in one's work and highlights the transformative potential of social entrepreneurship.
The discussion then delves into the role of the Centre for Social Innovation (CSI) and its impact on the nonprofit sector. Tonya explains how CSI provides physical spaces and a supportive community for social innovators to connect, collaborate, and thrive. She underscores the importance of creating an inclusive and diverse environment that fosters creativity and cross-pollination of ideas.
Daniel and Tonya explore the concept of social innovation and its relevance in addressing systemic issues. They discuss the need for innovative solutions that go beyond traditional approaches and the importance of embracing experimentation and learning from failure.
Tonya shares inspiring stories of social entrepreneurs who have successfully implemented innovative solutions to tackle social and environmental challenges. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing and supporting these entrepreneurs who are driving positive change.
The conversation also touches on the future of social entrepreneurship and the evolving landscape of the nonprofit sector. Tonya discusses the emergence of new models, such as hybrid organizations and social enterprises, and how they are reshaping the way social impact is achieved.
Throughout the episode, Tonya highlights the value of collaboration and the power of collective impact. She encourages listeners to embrace collaboration, break down silos, and build strong networks and partnerships to drive meaningful change.
This episode of the Growth for Good podcast offers a deep dive into the world of social entrepreneurship and the importance of creating spaces for collaboration and innovation. Tonya's expertise and passion for social impact provide listeners with valuable insights and inspiration to drive positive change in their own communities.
Tonya Surman is fuelled by her belief in the power of collaboration and belonging. She knows that putting the right people in a room is only the first step in creating real change, and that you need to build a culture where everyone knows they have value and a voice to radically redesign our futures. She did this with the Constellation Model, an entirely new take on governance. She did this with the Centre for Social Innovation, which re-invented the workplace by collecting social purpose organizations under one roof. She did this with Community Bonds, an innovation that allows a nonprofit to turn their social capital into financial capital. She knows building relationships between people is the foundation for a better world.
Episode Transcript
Daniel
Tonya, welcome to Growth for Good. So excited to have you.
Tonya
Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Daniel
So we're gonna start off with super quick, what is your 30 seconds or less elevator pitch for CSI?
Tonya
The Centre for Social Innovation is a co-working space and a community and an accelerator and launchpad for people who want to make social change in the world.
Daniel
Amazing. I love that, very concise.It's been around for quite some time now. Almost 20 years.
Tonya
I had my 19th anniversary on Friday.
Daniel
Amazing
Tonya
Can you believe that? And I’m the founder and CEO, what am I doing here still?
Daniel
I love that. So we're gonna start off asking, as the founder of Centre for Social Innovation, there's a lot of terms being thrown around that maybe people aren't super clear on or super aligned on that we hear a lot. Social Innovation, of course, social purpose, business, social enterprise. And there's a whole slew of them. I'd love it if we could define some of the terms. So how do we define social innovation?
Tonya
New ideas for a better world. Straight up. There are lots of different definitions we've argued, does it have to be systems changing, does it not? My feeling is that the definition of social innovation should be as inclusive as possible. So if you're working to make change in your community, in your neighborhood, in your city, your region, your country or your world, as far as I'm concerned, if you're working to make that change, you're part of a movement for social innovation. Now, strictly speaking, an innovation is really about a new idea, that or a renewed idea that helps us to break through, ideally, to a systems change that will unlock a whole new ecosystem of opportunity. Let's just be clear, a wind in the sails of good is what we need. innovations we also need, but let's not get hung up on it. Let's just make change.
Daniel
Got it. I love that. So it's not about the structure and the formality of it, as long as you're actually creating change. But that system changes what of course is going to be, the very sustainable piece that that helps move everyone forward. Obviously, the economy is changing a lot. And there's a term called the next economy, which is described that for those who aren't familiar, people centered, sustainable, circular, just participatory and equitable. Everything is all the words, yes. But it values human dignity. It's conscious. I would love to turn it over to you to explain, where do you think Canada comes in? Where are we as a country in the next economy? And then lastly, you can share, where does CSI come in and step into that role?
Tonya
Wonderful that you're asking this question. Many, many moons ago, I had an opportunity to do an op-ed in The Globe and Mail, where I spoke about the caring economy. The next economy, the the the ability for Canada to position itself, as a leader in the next economy is this amazing opportunity. So many moons ago, we were actually rated number one best place to be a social entrepreneur. Now, that's pretty exciting. I don't think that necessarily, we've done as much with this opportunity as we might have. But I think the bottom line is this. Capitalism, as we know, it needs to change. The economic systems that we have in place are holding us back. They are extractive and exploitative. Whether it's the people or the planet, we need to come up with new models. And when we take a look at Canada, because we have such a caring economy, because our world, our political context, is probably one of the most progressive in the world, truly a leader, we have the opportunity to embody those progressive values, those caring values, the caring the values of inclusion, and solution into our economic exports. So from my perspective, I think this is an amazing opportunity for Canada. I wish we realize it, whether it's the green economy, the social economy, the caring economy, I don't really care, the circular economy, all of it is good. And and I think that we have an incredible opportunity to position our country as a leader in solutions based economic systems. So where does CSI fit into that? Well, one of the things that we've done over the last 19 years is we've been working to develop and accelerate those social purpose enterprises, social purpose businesses, whether it's environment stuff, so we've done incredible work with our climate solutions and climate ventures work we've supported over 135 companies that have then been able to leverage over $100 million and follow on funding and resources to get their climate solutions into the market. We've done incredible work working with marginalized women low income, people of color to be able to support their businesses, to getting these ideas into the market. So much of what we've been doing in the last 19 years has been really focusing on how do we unlock your ability to leverage your entrepreneurial spirit with making the change towards the thing that matters most to you, right, your passion. So, what we've done in the past has been very much about sort of, how do we support everybody to remove the barriers. But what's happening now, and we'll talk about this a little later is like things are changing at CSI in a pretty big way. And we're moving towards a more strategic venture studio model to support our next economy work. Because one of the things that's happened is that what honestly, the other accelerators across the Ontario region, at least have figured it out. And when Mars decides that they're going to become leaders in solving climate solutions, I say yes, great, fantastic. And our partnership with foresight, a phenomenal partner, what we've been able to do is package up all of that climate venture work, package it off to them, and let them take the work to the next level. So what we're doing is we're sort of saying, there are other new players in the market that want to be involved in this stuff, and that everyone needs to be a part of the solution. So we're gonna go and figure out where can we add the greatest amount of value most strategically like acupuncturists, for social change,
Daniel
I love that. And you've definitely created, essentially a platform, right, and a network, which a network is probably even speaking lightly to it to the size and the scale of it. And also, a lot of the connections that you've made personally over your career. So having been with the organization for, just over 19 years, as you mentioned, I'd love to know, how did you end up in the sector in the first place? And perhaps, what was a little bit of your journey towards getting?
Tonya
When I was 14, I was asked to become president of a youth group. And those early starts, they teach you everything, don't they? Right, you, you learn how to organize, you learn how to, persuade, you learn how to convene, you learn how to organize the party, you know. And this is, by the way, before, there was such a thing called the internet. And so we still did like mail outs and had newsletters, and so on and so forth. And, and so I've started my leadership journey really, really young. And very, very quickly. When I was 19 years old, I founded my first nonprofit, it's called it was called Earth shoppers, and I was going to shop to make the world a better place. Now, I got in there, naive, 19 or 20 years old, thinking I could do it. But I created my first board of directors, we had a logo, whoa, right, had a newsletter, got lots of media coverage, I was right in there. And then I realized that I was really over my head, like, wow, I had to actually evaluate what these big corporations and companies were doing. So I started really young, I used my university, my so called university education, to found three or four other organizations from the Global Development awareness network to you name it, I, I was never particularly interested in in education, formal education. But I was profoundly interested in how you make change. I'm 18 Social startups. And now at this point, and, and I've never not done this work. So I don't even know what it would look like, I've done it in every single legal model. I've done it across borders. I don't, I don't actually know how I could not be doing this. So after I, I started Earth shoppers, and I started a whole bunch of other things in there. And a couple of the big projects that I was involved in was one of the CO as one of the cofounders of rebel.ca, which was an alternative news magazine with Judy rebek and other phenomenal leaders, and then led the charge to get the ban on BPA and baby bottles with the Canadian partnership for children's healthy environment. And then ultimately, with CSI, I've had the opportunity to help co-found and create many, many other organizations like the Ontario nonprofit network and, and climate ventures. And now actually, the most recent one is social innovation Canada, which I was the founder of and, and led that for five years and I've just recently spun it out because I believe in letting go of these things so that other more talented people can take them and take them to the next level. More on the starter side. I stay at CSI only because it lets me start more things
Daniel
amazing. I love that I think your journey has a lot of you know great synergies and collaborations and overlaps. And I think that last point you mentioned there of being able to pass it on pass on the torch and let go allows you to number one do something else because you've got a lot of ideas and passion in you clearly. But also it allows that change to potentially be amplified far beyond what you would be doing personally so if you look at the Social Innovation Canada website, for example, there's dozens of faces, right people from all all across the country and it's incredible to kind of see this movement that you started
Tonya
I've never founded anything alone.
Daniel
That's a good point. I think in the nonprofit charitable sector, it's important to take that approach. It's a collaborative approach. And that translates to social enterprise, no entrepreneur can succeed in a silo alone. That's not how it works. It's definitely not, I'd love if we could talk a little bit about things that you're personally passionate about. We're all here because, of course, we care about making the world a better place. A lot of my guests have, they work tirelessly on a cause or a charity that they that they're, that's their job, or that they're founder of, but what are some of the things you're personally passionate about?
Tonya
Yeah. The thing I'm most driven by in my life, and the thing that connects all of the pieces of what I do, is ultimately, it comes down to three words, joy, purpose, and belonging. And I create those, I bring those three ideas together in this radical concept called Community. Everything I've done is about how we work together. How do we build social connections? How do we build relationships? How do we build trust? How do we build ecosystems? How do we build networks? In Canada, both networks, you know why networks because if we can build the capacity of those relationships in the learning, then the kinetic energies and synergies that can emerge out of those relationships are unlimited. And I guess I feel so profoundly that so much of what stops us from doing this work is not knowing how to find alignment. And when I was a young, young woman, I was learning, studying and growing wherever I could, and I went to a talk from leaders of the Latin American women's movement in the basement of a church on Bloor Street. And I asked, I stood up, I had the courage, like 920 20 years old, 21 years old to stand up in front of, there's a roomful of 300 women. I said, why? Why was it? What was it that made it so that this could work that this movement that this campaign would work? And the women, the woman stood up on the front of the room? And she said, we asked ourselves one very important question. What do we agree on? Not what do we disagree on? And let's litigate that? What do we agree on? And can we build a movement around what we agree on? That was probably the most profoundly insightful thing I've ever heard in my life. I'm not interested in Left, Right politics, I'm not interested in the dichotomy between the different worlds of like strategy or tactics. I'm in, I'm all in, I don't care a for profit, nonprofit, charity, business corporation, we all need to be a part. So what do we agree on? We agree that we want our planet to survive, so that it can sustain us as a species. Right? I think that's sort of what we could probably agree on the question of how do we get there? What are the tactics? So I'm really obsessed with collaboration, but I will just say I'm, I am newly in the last eight years, beyond moved by the power of nature. I am, I am shifting everything I know and believe, to a deeper understanding of our relationship and our fundamental need to reconnect and re weave our knowing that we are nature. And this I just can't even it's like such profound learning. For me. It's so obvious, but I think we've forgotten. It's not just the walk in the park and breathing the air and take take take, it's actually about a fundamental reconfiguration and understanding of our relationship. So I'm, I'm going on wonders. I'm, I'm diving deep into the power of nature and to the mysteries of nature. And I'm, I'm realigning everything I do and everything I build to be about how we can support others to reconnect more deeply and with sustainability because and sustainability is too weak a word. This is so fundamental. Want to talk about God want to talk about spirit, you want to talk about social enterprise? It all boils down to how do we reawaken the mysteries of the relationship between us and the others? So I'm, I'm charged up man, I am so charged up so if people want to talk to me about that, I want I want to steward this city this this region, I'm obsessed with saving the Greenbelt. I'm really, really interested in what we can do as a I'm so disappointed in the political parties. And, and I am profoundly moved for us to organize a citizen As movement to protect the Emerald jewel which surrounds our beautiful city, and protect this for ourselves, for food security and for future generations,
Daniel
it ties into so many so many issues. Like you said, we're so interconnected. And people don't realize that because your day to day is very fragmented. And you order something on an app you order Uber Eats, for example, and you don't see any of the impact from the gig economy, to the restaurant workers to the supply chain to everything the landlord's it's like there's so many factors. I think that it's incredible to that you're diving into that and how we're all connected and how we're all reliant on this planet, which is not not an unlimited resource. Does that also relate to why CSI is purchased or is now has another property in I believe, it's in Muskoka.
Tonya
We don't own it. No, we're in a partnership with the Berlinger foundation to operate Watson Island. And yes, it has everything to do with it. Like it's, what a magical place. And Watson Island, just so people know, is a six and a half acre island in Lake Rosseau, in Muskoka owned by the Brinegar foundation that CSI is operating, we're hosting a number of workshops up there, we're doing a social innovation immersive. For one week, we're doing an art of hosting, we're doing a leaders retreat, and I'm working on if I can work it out, I'm working on a gathering around this concept of repatriation, which I'll leave, because I don't have enough knowledge about it yet, but I'm working on it, which is around how do we harness, say, the sacred feminine and support women's leadership, and then next, in the next 100 to 200 years, whilst an island is about creating the space for retreat for us to heal our relationship with nature, I'm, I'm ecstatic. And I feel very, very privileged to be able to be in that partnership and, and to be able to open it up to other folks who may not have had the opportunity to be in this spectacular part of Ontario. But also so that we can deepen our understanding of the mysteries and and open our hearts and our minds and our and our intuitions to the way that nature is choosing to guide us as social entrepreneurs.
Daniel
Amazing. I look forward to checking out the space for sure. The pictures. very enticing. Yeah. So I wanted to just switch gears to maybe some of the challenges that you feel so with every organization no matter the size or stage, there's there's challenges that we face as leaders. Is there any advice that you could share? But firstly, what are what are one or two challenges that you've faced or overcome during your time in social entrepreneurship?
Tonya
So many, so many failures, so much adaptation, so much resilience? I'm going to tell you about the most recent one, because I think it will be interesting for folks is, at one point, we had six locations, right? And we were leaders in the co working space. I mean, let's just go back, what does CSI do? We we own and operate buildings and have created a collaborative workspace for social purpose organizations as small as a couple hours a month all the way up two giant, beautiful suites. And I can honestly say to you that I thought real estate would be insulated from change, and that is COVID has proven that that is not true. So in the last three years during the pandemic, CSI has been challenged by absolutely everything. We did not expect that remote work was going to take off and quite the way it did. And we've been reeling and having to really adapt and readjust. Last year, we went from 80 staff down to 30. We closed our New York location, we closed our Regent Park location. We are down to the two buildings we own and the partnership with Watson. We spun out social innovation Canada, we spun up the foresight climate ventures project, and we're still working with TechSoup Canada, which we also are stewarding it's been you know I'm a grow I'm a starter to be in a situation where we're having to consolidate, clean up, reorganize, deconstruct has been exhausting, hard demotivating it's not what most entrepreneurs think that they're going to do. And I think there's a shift when you go from being the social entrepreneur to being the CEO. It happened for me really explicitly at about your eight. And it's interesting because then I get like spurts of my my spirit with the entrepreneurship but then I get pulled back into the CEO role, right, the management, the HR, the, the reorganization the business As decisions, the financials, it's like, it's not exactly the creative, the most critical, although sometimes it can be. And so, one of the things that we've been really struggling with is how how do we adapt to what we, conceptually actually think is great. Like, look, people are coming into the office every day nine to five, Monday to Friday, that's an industrial paradigm that has to go right rather than anything, you know that a lot of the corporations are trying to hold on to that you must show up. And because we don't trust you in the workplace to actually do your job. And I think that that's problematic, it's very old ways of thinking. At the same time, I don't want us to lose the power of collaboration, the power of alignment, of synergies of the unintended consequences of, of connecting face to face and the magical, embodied energy energy that we thrive in, right. And so one of the things that we're doing CSI is having to really adapt, right, like really adapt, we're pretty grateful we own the buildings that we do, having created the community bonds back in 2010, probably the most important thing I ultimately have done for the organization because we own them. And it gives us the leverage, we don't can't be booted around by someone else. But we're having to adapt to figure out what work how we're going to meet the needs of folks, we're shifting a lot towards digital engagement, we're doing a lot of work around online membership. And we're recognizing that this is not it's not about workspace, as much as it's about the flexibility to find places and times and moments to connect and convene. So we're in business, I'll just say if people are looking for workspace, we would love to be your home. And we'd love to be able to find a way to create a perfect solution for how you can work to the optimum with your team, right, because I think that's really what it's about. It's finding the right pattern for your organization, recognizing that we're already moving into a four day workweek, right? It's, it's happened. And, the city is empty on Mondays and Fridays. And if you notice, walked by traffic is down 40% in the downtown core, and Toronto has an article about it the other day in The Globe and Mail. And we certainly we we, we barely have anybody in the buildings on Fridays. And so Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday becomes the opportunity for those connections for the sales connections for the networking events for us to be able to really invest in the in the ensuring that the innovation ecosystem, which is what CSI is right, like, we say, oh, it's for the workspace is for co working. But it's all really about community. It's about connections, it's about creating the the ecosystem, the innovation ecosystem, which allows people to find each other and to reduce the friction, to getting those connections happening so they can get their projects up to the next level. And so that's been the hardest thing. I mean, honestly, going from a $12 million budget to a $4 million dollar budget. That's humbling. It's humbling, letting go of so many of my babies. It's humbling. And, and it's good,
Daniel
especially at this stage in your career in the trajectory where it was a lot of growth, growth, growth building, building building. So that's definitely I mean, I can't even imagine how challenging that would be. But seeing that CSI has survived the pandemic is is very, it's very good. I think it's very needed. It'd be it'd be devastating as a loss. But I'm sure either way, it would continue as a community online, which is so powerful. I think it's one of the best possible online communities for changemakers. I mean, not only in Toronto, but yeah, across the country and around the world. I did, I'm glad I did have a chance to visit the New York location before it closed. So beautiful. Yeah, it was nice. I actually was a speaker at a conference there, which was amazing. Few years back. And my favorite location, I will say is, is the annex one Yeah, of course. But I'm super close to being. So I pop in there every once in a while as well. And I think just the vast just to even just give a shout out to CSI, the vast amount of options that are available when it comes to meeting rooms and event space. It has that very warm community feeling, right. And it's the right place for a lot of this important social innovation work that happens.
Tonya
We're glad you're here. And we really do welcome people who share our values. And it's a magical place, we're actually going to be publishing. We did a member survey in 2021. And it was interesting because we actually did this in depth. We had nine 747 People respond to this. It was pretty amazing, really looking very deeply at how we build joy, purpose and belonging. And I'm really excited to share it. We've worked so hard to create the soft skills that make you feel welcome and at home. To me that's, that's how you build the community that you build belonging is that you feel a little, a little sense of ownership, that you feel that our place is your place. And that you feel welcome. That's like the core.
Daniel
I love that. And I feel like that part of community gets thrown around in like the social media and marketing world as, community engagement or community management, which is just like replying to comments or something, right. But this is a much deeper level of that community where people feel invested in the organization in the company and, and that does speak volumes because it opens the door for referrals and new ideas and collaborations. I wanted to switch gears and talk about some of the successes, I think it's important to celebrate the successes. A lot of times when we're busy, you know operating many ventures or working in nonprofits, it's hard to even showcase those those wins and those success stories. Is there an example of of one or two things that you're proud of? Either in the whole history of your career or recent wins? That you can share with us?
Tonya
I mean, so many. I feel so grateful. I think the greatest when I mean, look, we've had many, but we bought buildings, right? We created community bonds. We were home at one point I to over 1000 social purpose organizations, can you imagine 1000 places, people and organizations came in. I'm so proud of what we've been able to spin out what that we don't run right anymore. Like the Ontario nonprofit network, like foresight climate ventures, like social innovation Canada, like steps, like green enterprise, Toronto, like there's so many of the incubated projects that we've done that I'm very, very proud of. We've done crazy projects off the side. I mean, we were the ones who organize the goodbye party for honest Ed's we were the ones we've done, like, getting into a partnership with Brinegar to open up Watson Island, like, I mean, but I think some of the things that I'm most proud of is, I still have relationships with pretty much all of my former staff. and I think that's cool. My leadership team, those folks, we still, we still touch base, we still connect, Eli Molinsky, who has spent the first 10 years with me, building CSI in the early days is my like, official number two, if you will, wish me a happy birthday the other day like I those relationships, when it really boils down to it, this work? Sure, we're here to save the world, and we may or may not succeed. Who cares? Really what matters most is that we're modeling the world we want in every interaction, that we're savoring the relationships that are so profound to the connections of what we can co create together. And that we're finding a way to like every decision, put people in Planet first money second business Second, people in plan for us, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean you make bad decisions. It means you make informed decisions, right? In every choice and that every because everybody in your team and your organization gets to be a part of things. So for me, but the final answer just say is, there's nothing better than walking into one of our locations where I see people who I know didn't know each other, bubbling smiling and talking to one another.
Daniel
That's the magic. That's the win for you. I love that. I felt that at different different periods of time throughout whether I was, one of my very first part time roles when I before I launched my agency before, you know it was a freelancer is I got a role with 21 toys. They were based out of the annex location. And I remember, yeah, Ilana I was I was living in. I think I was living in Brampton at the time. And I would commute two or three days a week to work there. And it was just like, I wanted to stay. I wanted to hang around there. And I did some of my freelance work. It was just it was incredible. So I think, when people do feel that, they will stay and I do hope that that not only returns to pre pandemic levels, but continues to grow.
Tonya
I want to just say one other thing. One other program that we've done that I haven't mentioned that I have to. For 12 years, we've been running a program that was formerly called the desk exchange community animation program, the DACA program, we've recently rebranded it the community animation program, and I just want to say something about this. This program has supported between 60 and 100 people every single year for 12 years, and that program has never showed up on our balance sheet. It was always this exchange off the side. And I just we did it in the member survey, we did a whole bunch of research and I have to say, the impact that we have had on the community animators, the the DECOs, we call them in the organization has been huge, like potentially the most successful of all of our programs, and I just It blows me away. 50% of them new Canadians 70% People in transition, trying to find that their next placement, how do they go? Where did they go whether their corporate burnouts, we've had judges in there, we've had police officers, we've had new people straight from other countries all over the place. And they found and they say, in the, in the survey, they say, I found my housemates, my friends, my lovers, and my job. Like that, to me, is probably one of my proudest. One of the proudest things that we've done is to really change the quality of life for so many people in that kind of in that kind of space. So anyway, I had to go back and I love that. Yeah, it's such an amazing program over 1000 animators in the last 12 years, I
Daniel
have no idea was that many I just assumed it was like two or three per location.
Tonya
Now it's crazy. Like I'm we're like we're amping it up, like they're getting the best training. Now they get off. So fantastic. I love the program. So anyway, there we go.
Daniel
Amazing. There's another innovation that CSI has come up with. What would you say is one thing that social innovators need to succeed? Either as founders and leaders, or, as the organization or business itself,
Tonya
never burn a bridge. Never, ever burn a bridge. If I could say, every relationship you have, you're going to have for the rest of your life. And so make decisions, so that you and do the work. Fix heel, nudge, love, support. Never burn a bridge.
Daniel
That's powerful. That applies to of course, any any industry, but I think in one that's as collaborative and community based as a nonprofit and social sector. I think. That's, that's very powerful. Thank you. All right, we're gonna move on to a little bit on the kind of marketing communications side. So obviously, we talked about CSI being a community, it relies on members, including co working, co working customers, events, rentals, for example, how has CSI as marketing efforts evolved or pivoted during our because of the pandemic?
Tonya
Dramatically? we really went pretty quiet. Another thing that we did during the, during the pandemic in the early days is that we actually created something called the Community rent pool. Oh, so I don't know. But we lost 11% of our organizations within the first eight weeks of the pandemic. I want to talk about vulnerable. Well, startups are vulnerable, vulnerable. And so we created a committee rent pool where people literally paid what they could towards the rent. And those who could put in a little bit more did and it was phenomenal. I forget the question, shoot, no, yeah, I got sidetracked by something
Daniel
more so that I mean, that's very innovative. I can't actually see anyone, I can't actually see any of the landlords applying something like that. So that's, that's incredible. It's more so yeah. How did your marketing efforts change?
Tonya
Right? Well, I mean, for sure. One of the things that we were doing, and what we're doing now is we're really trying to reach out to folks who are downsizing. Right? So where are the opportunities for us lies is, as work is changing. co working spaces are actually perfect, right? I mean, we help you and you're growing, and we help you when you're shrinking. And so we're perfect. For the remote team who's now dispersed across the country. We've put in a whole bunch of amazing AV technology to be able to do hybrid events, and, and, and co working, remotely, we're putting in systems all over the place. And so a lot of our work has been really reaching out to folks who are in whose leases are coming up on those spaces, and who are looking to shrink because of the realities of what's going on. And that's been a huge part of our, our work. And right now we're also looking at how do we diversify our revenue stream. So a lot more effort being put into our online membership, and the power of the convenings and the events? Because, for us working is part of it. And people come for the community and the beauty of this spaces, but they stay. They stay because of the social connections and they and the friendships and the opportunities that emerge in the space. And so, yeah, we're just like reminding people that we still are here. Yeah, and that was Still a heck of a lot of fun.
Daniel
I think that's so important. And some of the ways that you do that, of course are CSI is active on major social media channels, which I see. The beauty of that is with all these members, you have so many stories to tell, which I love. And the community I don't know if you agree, but essentially, the community helps to tell your story. Right? You're not, scratching your head looking for stories and things to post about, which is great. Let's talk a little bit about the the email newsletter situation. So there's of course, the the email newsletter, and then there's the kind of listserv for members. That's right.
Tonya
Yeah. So I mean, our, our entire marketing strategy, and not just from COVID, for always has been amplifying the work of our members, right. Like, that's number one. Like, our entire digital strategy over the last 18 years has been, it's not about us. I mean, we're a platform, right? It's about you. It's about what are you doing? And that's so cool. Because we get to tell I mean, that's part of the value proposition is we get to tell your story, we tell your story, in our newsletter, or our CNN that goes out to 23,000. I think people across the country and mostly in the GTA, and, and we get to tell the stories of what's going on. So, what are your successes? What are your campaigns? What, what jobs? Are you trying to post? what events are you trying to get people to come to? It's just fun. Like, I always say that our marketing strategy is guided by the word cacophony. Because cacophony is what it feels like to be inundated with all of these opportunities. It's a bit, like, ah, but you do feel a sense of like, this is where it's happening.
Daniel
Right? The value is there. Yeah. And
Tonya
so the opportunity to, our, our value proposition is so simple in some ways, it's like, Hey, you have something you have something you guys should talk, you have something you have somebody you should talk, oh, you need you're looking for a designer, you're looking for a comms person you're looking for, expertise on this legal this or that, like, the inside all Members list is about how do we help each other. And then the outside the the innovators list that goes out to this 20,000 Plus, is about how we tell your story and how we support people getting engaged in your issues. Because guess what, we actually really care like deeply passionately, Madeley truly, I want you to succeed. Because when you succeed, we succeed. And when we succeed, the world is a better place. And that's pretty much the whole
Daniel
I love that. I'll just give an example of that. Because our, our agency, we're We're an online member, I'm not sure if it's called the Community member? I
Tonya
think so. Yeah. Yeah. So
Daniel
we're a community member online, and then do good to good fundraising who, I'm part of is also a member as well, like a co working member, too. And I think it was incredible to see, for example, this podcast that you're on, there was an episode with with Rohit from do good, on this podcast filmed here, and it was I saw it appear in the newsletter, and it was like, it's incredible to see that all those kind of worlds colliding, and then see, Okay, who else in this audience, can benefit from this content. And now you're opening us, I remember when it went out of the newsletter, there was like a little spike in views that day. And it just shows how engaged and captive that community is, and the audience is. So just to reiterate the value of that for members, even if you're just an online or community member,
Tonya
just Yeah, that's the best. I mean, if you don't need the workspace, we have unlimited space for community members. And, and you'll always be able to take advantage of the physical spaces when you need them. Right. So in some ways, we see that as our great growth area.
Daniel
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One more question on the marketing front. I talked with a lot of on this podcast, we talked a lot of people who are marketing leaders, if not executive directors or founders. And so we talked a little about, what does that look like for you? And as an organization? For CSI, we talked a lot about already what that entails telling the stories of members, but what is the the team? What does the personnel look like when it comes to marketing communications right now?
Tonya
It's very small. We have two people in our comms department. And then we have our animation team. So I mean, basically, the what we do is we create these staff positions, which are called Community animators, the community animators are the ones who really are there to nurture the relationships with the members, right to build the connection. So and they're the ones who get the news. And what's going on, oh, they just got funding, or they just did this or they, they're working on this campaign. And, they're the ones who then say, oh, did you know and they send the message to Colleen and Ashley and then call it an Ashley. They were like, okay, yeah. So we're going to tell this story and we're going to see if we can line it up with this and, if Black History Month or it's, Entrepreneurship Week or what have you and we're always looking for ways of I'm telling those stories within that particular text. But it's a pretty small team were wildly for why, but we also rely on our members to tell those stories to us. So when Twitter used to be big, and I don't think it is anymore used to be that we'd have like all of the, the, the hashtags in the space, and we let the audience tell the stories, what was going on in the spaces, we don't have to. And so it's very much about giving ourselves away. And I'll tell you what, I at one point was a director of communications for one of the many organizations and, and I, one of the, one of the guiding principles that I have employed in comms has been always be giving yourself away. And that's a very antithetical to brand control, right. But this is sort of a core value here. Because if we're not always giving ourselves away, one, we're taking on too much work ourselves, we probably can't handle it, like managing an ecosystem is impossible, you have to just be okay, with letting it things happen, right? Sometimes there's going to be dirty dishes, sometimes there won't. We hope to build a culture of people cleaning the dishes, that's sort of a, that's the intention. So and so there's this idea, if we're always giving ourselves away, if we're always inviting you to a potluck, or we expect you to bring something. If we're always trying to find a way to tell your story, we hope that you'll tell our story. It's this reciprocity. How are we building reciprocity into every decision we make and every opportunity that we create, and that's like fundamental to the comps. It's fundamental to marketing. And so I think I'm hoping that we can re embrace those ideas as we rebuild back from COVID. It's such a in some ways, we've had such a massive turnover of tenants and staff and members, not staff, we've actually stayed pretty solid, didn't lay anybody off during COVID I'm very proud of. And so yeah, it's finding that reciprocity so that we can all thrive.
Daniel
That's so important. What is at least one source of inspiration that you would recommend people in the nonprofit or social sector turn to whether whether it's a book, a podcast, a newsletter, a specific thought leader, anything that you'd like to recommend people look into? Oh, wow, it's gray opens up.
Tonya
I'll just say, if you haven't read braiding sweetgrass, do, okay, Robin wall Kimmerer will blow your mind. I would say, another one to please, please take a look at Richard wagamese, who has written an incredible book called embers which I think will shift could shift the world and don't believe the media the world is also getting better. And if I could invite your listeners to anything, limit the amount you expose yourself to terms of social media, the media, the news, protect yourself, employ what we call Mental Hygiene. my dad taught me thoughts are things and where you put your attention is what you will create. And I feel so deeply that we will live in the world that we choose to live in. And that the lens that we bring to our work and to our lives, is our personal choice. And at CSI, we choose to believe in possibility, hope, and solutions. And people have accused us of being naive or ignorant. Fine. I choose hope, possibility. Solutions, co creation, community, love, belonging. And anywhere that you can find inspiration that guides you towards the positive means that you get to live in a positive world. So as my invitation, create the world you want and live in it.
Daniel
And fill yourself with those positive stories that helped reinforce that. There's a newspaper that's actually in print called good newspaper. And I subscribed to that. It's just it's amazing to see the themes that they cover. But from this good news perspective, right, it's like you need these reminders of what's actually happening progress that's being made, even if they're small, progress and movements around the world on social issues. Okay, I'll trade you one. Have you seen few to crunch I have not, ah,
Tonya
let's trade. Scott future crunch blows my mind. It's an online subscription service of good news of what social activists have done from around the world. I love it. I get it weekly, I couldn't be happier. I really, really, really recommend it. Future crunch. And yours was Good Newspaper. And what's the scope Canada or its international?
Daniel
And what's incredible is that as a subscriber, you contribute to it, of course you fund it. And so they actually print everyone's name in every issue. So there's a page with everyone's name, who's supported. I'm going to join
Tonya
anything for good news. Yeah. Anything for good news? Because guess what? When we read that good news, we see that things are possible that we can do things right. Like, I always say, coal fire plants, we got rid of them in Ontario, why don't we celebrate that? We get rid of BPA in baby bottles? Why don't we celebrate that? Why are we always focused on the negative think about how far we've come? we have clean drinking water. It's amazing. 100 years ago, we didn't have that. Like it's a phenomenon. So like, we've come so far. And if we work together, and we build our relationships with one another, and we don't burn any bridges, you'd be amazed at what we can create together.
Daniel
Amazing. Tanya, that's the perfect place to wrap this episode. Thank you so much for being part of growth for good.
Tonya
Such a pleasure. Daniel, thank you so much for having me.
Daniel
Awesome. Thanks.
