Growing with Jason Egbuna, The Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation
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In this episode of the Growth for Good podcast, Daniel Francavilla hosts a conversation with guest Jason Egbuna, the Marketing Manager of Major, Estate, and Leadership Giving at The Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation. The episode delves into the role of innovation in the nonprofit sector and the barriers organizations face in adopting new strategies and technologies.
Jason shares his insights on the importance of embracing innovation to drive social impact. He emphasizes that innovation is not limited to technological advancements, but also includes creative problem-solving and adopting new approaches to address challenges in the sector. Jason highlights the need for nonprofits to be adaptable and open to change in order to stay relevant and effective.
The discussion then shifts towards the barriers that often hinder nonprofits from embracing innovation. Jason identifies limited resources, risk aversion, and organizational culture as common obstacles. He stresses the significance of creating a culture of innovation within nonprofits, where experimentation and learning from failure are encouraged.
Daniel and Jason explore strategies to overcome these barriers and foster innovation within organizations. They discuss the importance of leadership buy-in and the role of champions who can drive innovation initiatives forward. Jason also emphasizes the value of partnerships and collaborations between nonprofits, as they can provide shared resources and knowledge.
Throughout the episode, Jason highlights the need for nonprofits to leverage technology and data to enhance their impact. He shares examples of successful initiatives that have utilized technology to drive innovation and emphasizes the importance of leveraging data to make informed decisions.
The episode concludes with Jason providing advice for individuals and organizations seeking to embrace innovation in the nonprofit sector. He encourages listeners to be open to change, take calculated risks, and be proactive in seeking out resources and partnerships that can support their innovation efforts.
Overall, this episode of the Growth for Good podcast offers valuable insights into the role of innovation in the nonprofit sector. Jason's expertise and experiences provide listeners with practical advice and inspiration to drive innovation and create meaningful social impact.
Jason Egbuna has over 16 years in direct marketing, and has worked in hospital-based fundraising for a decade, specializing in annual and leadership giving. He is currently the co-chair of the Canadian Marketing Association’s Not-for-Profit Council, and has served on the council for the past 6 years. Outside of his nonprofit career he has worked on the creative side of marketing and sales, generating virtual ads for NFL and PGA broadcasts.
Episode Transcript
Daniel
Welcome to Growth for Good, Jason. Thanks for coming.
Jason
Hey, thanks for having me.
Daniel
Awesome. We've both been on the CMA Not-for-Profit Council. I'm super excited to learn a little bit from you about marketing in the nonprofit and social good sector. I'd like to start off by you telling us about your career history in marketing in the sector.
Jason
So I started in the hospital sector at Sunnybrook, sort of doing the same role I do now, direct marketing, working on leadership and annual giving, and made my way from Sunnybrook over to CAMH and then from CAMH over to Princess Margaret. I was at Hamilton Health Sciences for a little bit and now back to The Princess Margaret. So I'm all sort of working in the same, same area, direct marketing and some leadership and annual giving and a little bit of monthly, but yep, a few different organizations.
Daniel
Given the last couple of years with the pandemic, has your role changed at all within the way that direct marketing has been approached?
Jason
Yeah. With the pandemic, it was a little strange. We, we weren't sure how people were gonna react as far as were people gonna be worried about their job security, and hold back on giving, or were they gonna say, what hospitals like, we really need to help them now like more than ever. We sort of saw the ladder, like people really went over the top and, and gave more. But really what we had to do in some of our mailings was. Just make sure that we were communicating the urgency behind COVID is here, it's laid an extra layer of sort of urgency on what happens at the cancer center. But also that cancer hasn't stopped because COVID is here. So it was kind of balancing that messaging and just kind of stressing the urgency in both areas.
Daniel
And of course, he would have gotten a lot of additional, media mentions and press coverage. But of course, you work specifically on the foundation side. So I'm assuming the additional awareness did help because people saw the gaps, right?
Jason
Yeah, for sure. People saw the gaps. I don't think a lot of people didn't really realize, the pressure that can be put on a health system by having one sort of like a pandemic or one crisis come in, whether it was covid or years ago, if you go back to SARS, something like that. People don't realize just how fragile that system is. So I think it was a lot of people reached out and gave extra gifts. some of the people we've, we've seen come back year after year, as far as continuing that giving. Other people have made one-time gifts they've helped in the way that they can, and now we're not seeing them come back. So, a little bit of both as far as ongoing support or support, just like in the heart of the crisis.
Daniel
Exactly. I mean, you're hoping that habits will change and that awareness will kind of stick around as well. Right? I'd love to know just from your career perspective, you work with annual giving, leadership giving, and you specifically have worked a lot in the health and hospital space. What was your career journey like prior to that? How did you end up in this niche as you could say?
Jason
So going back a bit, I used to work at Cam Wes Media work. So I was working on the creative side of things. So if you'd watch something like the NFL and you see these virtual insertions where it's the first download is brought to you by Grand & Toy or something, you see a highlighter come in and draw the line, I used to develop those ads.
Daniel
I used to love Grand & Toy
Jason
They were really open to a lot of creative things. But then as the NFL contract came up, and Rodgers came in and took our business, so I'm like, I don't think there's gonna be work for me here anymore. And so I stayed on for a little bit and then the opportunity wasn't there anymore. So I took a step back and said, at Camwest, I was able to do some print some digital, then do some broadcast stuff. So I was like Where else in marketing can I focus? And I saw an opportunity at a company called Cornerstone. They've had since been purchased by Deloitte early just doing hardcore direct marketing, like the data side of things. And I was like, well, I don't know anything about direct marketing. I threw my hat in the ring and ended up getting a job there. So that's how I kind of got into the whole direct marketing side of things and really good base, as far as getting to work with a lot of different nonprofits. Places like Heart and Stroke, UNICEF, like a lot of the big players, charity. Really just seeing how those different organizations work, things that were important to them how their marketing mix sort of work. So a really good foundation for me, as far as moving into not for profit work.
Daniel
Awesome. So it's kind of that trajectory to get you into that. And then I guess you talk a lot about direct marketing for those who are either with a maybe a very small nonprofit looking to get into the space, could you explain what direct marketing includes?
Jason
Sure. So there are a few different ways to say it. Some people say direct marketing, some say direct response. Mostly what I deal with is direct marketing, as far as pieces of mail that are being sent out to people. But there's also, doing it through social. It's really just where you're having that direct contact from the organization to that end user. So in our case, to the donor. But for me, I focus mostly on the mail, as like the heart of the piece. But also incorporating some like email follow up, will try to tie it into different social posts are really having a little bit of a mix as far as how we're contacting people. But for me, it's the heart of what I do is in the mail.
Daniel
One of the things that one of our previous guests spoke about was how important it is to have data and to be able to use this data to inform decisions and pivot the messaging, for example. How does that work in the world of print marketing or mail marketing?
Jason
Yeah, so data is huge. Like, it can't be understated, especially right now we're seeing, all the costs and print are just skyrocketing. Paper cost more, or the printing processes cost more. So you can afford to go that old school route of just where they used to today, spray and pray, right? Everybody just can't do it anymore. So you really have to rely on your data to make sure you're targeting the right people, make sure that you're speaking to them in the right language. If it's donors, you're talking to them about things that they want to hear about, right? So it's really just, I will say to our team, just listen to your donors. Listen to the data, and look at what are people responding to, what are they interested in, what's the data telling you. But then on the other side of that, a lot of focus is put so much on data. And a lot of times people forget about the creative side of it. So I say you can have the most targeted campaign in the world. But if the creative on it is low quality, or misses the mark, it's a total waste. So if you don't have that balance, and those two sides working together, you're not going to have successful campaigns. So data is super important. It's good that there's more focus on it. Now, I think from the whole big data thing about seven years ago to now it's a good progression. But you can't forget the creative side.
Daniel
I love that. Because what are you going to do with the data, right? You have to data inform the creative and the messaging, I love that. Now, just in general, we know that everyone's competing for attention. And whether that is through direct means or whether it's just awareness campaigns, things like traditional media, billboards, TV, and radio ads, what are some things that organizations can do if you had to give some advice to other nonprofits? What can they do to stand out in that kind of crowded world?
Jason
I think, especially for nonprofits, you have to say, don't be afraid to try something different. Everybody now says, oh, we need to do our sick kids, we need to do our vs. Campaign, right? But the thing is they were different, but when they came out with that ad, it was something nobody had seen before, totally stepped out of the box. So it's really just having that sort of freedom to try something new. And knowing that it might not work. And it's always you have to be careful, because using donor dollars, and you don't want to just do these frivolous campaigns, but at the same time, you got to try something new. Because the car companies like the retail, like they're all going to be doing things that are flashy out there. So you've got to try something new, and I go to Heart and Stroke a few years back with their, I think the campaign was called make death wait. And that came on, you're like, well, like it was totally different. A little bit of backlash from some people, but I thought overall, it was really successful. I had a lot of good feedback, got them in front of people got people talking about Heart and Stroke. So you gotta try something like that. That's gonna be a little bit different.
Daniel
That's for sure. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's more ad spend or more budget. It comes down to the concept, right? And if you can get that very creative or impactful message, you can keep your budgets the same when it comes to executing that campaign something.
Jason
Yes, the one thing that really drives me nuts about not-for-profit is, people will say, Oh, I don't have the budget to do things, I don't have the budget to be creative, you totally do, you have to just see me look at your budget right now. And say, like, where are the areas where we can take a little bit of that and try something new. The thing I would say to my team is, everything dies. So you have a campaign that's going along great, and you run in a few years, at some point is gonna run out of steam. And if you wait too long, you get to that point where it's completely out of steam, and nobody's interested anymore. If you haven't tried something new or started working some new campaigns, you're in a bad spot, because now revenue is down, people are talking about you, and you're trying to get everybody back on board. So you really got to put those new things out there, use your existing budget, but just try something different with it.
Daniel
For sure. Every once in a while you have to pivot. So it's good to kind of be prepared, have that mindset, knowing that you'll be doing that upfront. So no matter what size your organization is, what stage you're at, in your career, or in your fundraising goals, for example, there's always going to be some kind of challenge, right? Are there any challenges that either you've had personally in your career or that you've seen in the places you've worked for when it comes to marketing and communications?
Jason
I think one of the challenges is sort of just going back to what I was just saying earlier, just convincing people that it's okay to try something new. I know a lot of organizations are very strong on their brand. And say that's not our brand. Okay, but at some point your brand has to evolve. And you have to always be looking at ways to engage people. And that's not saying you have to go completely outside your brand. But where are those boundaries? And where can you push a little bit? So really just getting people to start thinking differently. That's been a challenge sometimes that I've faced. And also within not-for-profits, one of the big challenges is just the sort of silos where you've got major gifts annual giving leadership, like, who owns, quote, unquote, owns what donors? Some organizations are better than others, as far as having a nice pipeline and being able to move donors between different groups and working on that strategy on how can we best serve the overall group of donors to help our bottom line, whereas other ones, it's a little bit more like, these are mine stay away. So it's, it can be challenging at times. Luckily, at Princess Margaret, we're pretty good as far as having an overall view of how donors can move through the pipeline. And your donor, who's the annual giving donor today could be a major gift donor tomorrow. So that's kind of, the approach we have to it. So yeah, that's been a challenge sometimes, but I'm happy that it's not one right now.
Daniel
That's great. And, like goes back to having the data to be able to track that so that you can make those predictions. Obviously, with a lot of marketing and communications and nonprofits, you're trying to solicit donations supporters, and build that connection with donors. So you have to focus on storytelling and emotion and getting these great showcasing these wins, right? What are some examples of successes or wins that you've had either in your current role or in a previous role?
Jason
Yeah, right now, I'm really proud of our equipment campaign that we have at Princess Margaret. So every August we create a brochure that in consultation with the cancer center, we find out what are the different items that different equipment items that they need at the cancer center, that they don't have in their capital funding. So we create a list and then send this out to our donors and say, these are different things we need and, and it's really just communicating those stories to say, like, Well, why is the vein finder important? Right? When you can't you have cancer patients coming in, it's tougher to find veins. When they have to get different injections, when you have nurses who are going in trying to give them different needles or hook them up to things, and you don't want to sit there poking somebody over and over, it's bad for the patient, and then the nurse starts getting overwhelmed. And so a vein finder can really help see the veins easily and really just telling that story really makes our donors get it right. So yeah, things like that with our equipment campaign where we're able to tell those stories, tell how we're having a machine that's mobile compared to one that's attached to a unit allows a patient to walk down the hall and be able to look out a window when receiving chemo and you're worn down and being able to have that little bit of mobility makes a huge difference, right? So it's telling those stories that are important for our donors, and our donors have come through year after year on that campaign. They really support it. And that's one of the things I'm most proud of.
Daniel
I think that's incredible. Because celebrating the successes also comes with educating. You're able to actually educate the public, whether they're going to become a donor or not, they now have this awareness. I think it's a great kind of two-sided thing there as well. And with of course, with health care, there are so many areas you could explore that people may not know. So there's a big opportunity for content and for storytelling there as well. Hopefully, we won't run out of those ideas and stories. So whether you've personally learned from your experience in the sector, on the job, or other associations you've been part of, for example, what are some of the principles are best practices, when it comes to marketing communications, for a non-profit that you could share to maybe help other organizations?
Jason
You know, one of the most simple things that people, different organizations don't do? Thank your donors, thank them quickly. And tell them what their donation is doing. It's so easy when somebody sends in a gift. The worst thing is, two months later, they get a thank you note, and you're like, oh, who, who did I give to? What is this from? Oh, yeah, these guys, I guess they didn't really appreciate my gift, right? So it's that gift comes in, I think he's gonna be going out right away. Thanks for giving, like, this is why you're important. Like, this is why what you're giving to you is important. And when you're able to do that, you're able to ask for a second gift a lot faster with a higher response rate, people will give again, if you thank them quickly, and essentially told them how much their gift means. There are numerous reports showing people will give again, so that's a basic. And then, like I was talking about earlier, that balance between the creative and the data side of things. Especially if you're on a tight budget, listening to your data, just making sure that you're having proper targets. And that you're speaking to people how they want to be spoken to, if you're sending out mail to somebody and they're never responding. But then on a follow-up, you see that they have a follow-up email, you'll see that they'll respond and give, maybe you should look at testing, just emailing those guys, save the money, and see me if they're not responding through the mail. So if they're focusing on a certain area of cancer, and not responding to other things, maybe just have them have a follow-up, going to them in that one area of cancer. So really just think, and listen to the data and what your donors are telling you, because you can end up saving a lot of money by doing proper targeting and messaging to those donors.
Daniel
Yeah, absolutely. It comes down to optimizing for your audience, but also as trends change. This is my next question to you. We saw things change with patterns, people's donation patterns with the pandemic. And so being able to respond and adapt to that is huge. Did you see a lot at the foundation? Did you see a lot of change in donation and support patterns? Or did your marketing efforts change during the course of the pandemic?
Jason
Our marketing efforts didn't change a lot. My sort of approach to it was, let's see how things pan out over the first bit in here and see how our donors we act to sort of our standard marketing. And so that works as far as just staying the course and numbers were good, and donors were responding more or less in the same way. One thing we did see a lot of was just having unsolicited gifts showing up. So people were just going online, and just donating to the cancer center, not to a specific fund or anything like that, just here, this is how I can help. That's like one of the big changes that we saw, right? And then it's just looking at those donors, and retargeting them because you don't really know anything about them. Other than the amount they gave and their address, right? So it's really just trying to find out what specifically are they interested in, whether it was just something to support during COVID So that sort of like that testing area and if you have the budget where you can do some of that testing. It's great to try it through the mail. If not, digital, you can still get a decent response and sort of find out some more information about some of those donors. Because it's the great unknown, the donors that came on board during COVID. You know, who's really interested in your cause who really just wanted to help during a time of crisis? So that's sort of pool of data, like, what do you do with it from here?
Daniel
Yeah, that's good to know. Because you've been kind of working in this specific space for about a decade now. Right? From when you started here, in this role, has anything changed? Or have you seen a lot of trends or patterns change in people the way they're supporting, or the platforms we're using?
Jason
Not a ton. So surprisingly, I thought we would see a bit more of a swing to digital. But it hasn't been as much of a swing to digital as I would have thought. What I am seeing is some people who are receiving mail, they'll receive that piece, and then they'll give electronically. So that makes a lot of sense. I don't have a checkbook at home. If I have to do a check for anything, I have to go to the bank, a bank draft and stuff like that.
Daniel
They've seen that as a reminder to go donate online.
Jason
Yeah. So that's what is making sure we have the personalized URLs and that sort of the one area where I'm shifting, but the question though, is then do you want to stop mailing those people and just communicate with them digitally? And then that's the risk, right? Do they like getting that piece and then responding? Or can you just go to them straight? digitally? Yeah. So it's tough.
Daniel
One of our past guests on the first season of the show spoke about how with his organization, he was executive director at some of the donors, especially the younger ones said, that you're the only piece of mail I've gotten at my address. And so they actually value that more, right? Especially people who are again, 95 or 100%. Digital today. And so that meant a lot more to them. And they want us to take action, whereas others again, the argument is like, maybe you have piles of mail, and it gets lost in there, too. So it is a balance. But again, it sounds like you're constantly monitoring that. And you have the ability to track those donations, where they came from. And you're able to adjust that.
Jason
Yeah, right. And we see that same thing to where we have that anecdotal data where younger donors are saying, yeah, like I don't get a lot of mail. I take that I read it, and I have it on my desk. And, and we see that in some of our mailings, where some mailings have a longer tail because it has that sort of shelf life, right? Because that thing is cool enough that it's going to sit around on somebody's desk or table or wherever, as opposed to just getting thrown in a recycling, right? So and that's where the creative aspect comes in. If it's something that looks good, and really communicates that message, and it's something that can hang around for a while we'll see gifts from our spring newsletter, and it'll be December, and we're still getting gifts to it. We know, it's sitting there. So, that sort of the younger demographic, we were seeing some of that, sort of where they appreciate getting those mail pieces. But their leadership area, like we don't have a strong younger demographic, it skews a little older. But that's one thing that we are seeing in leadership.
Daniel
Awesome. Now, just shifting gears a little bit to talk about a lot of these campaigns, a lot of the efforts are year round, I'm sure there are specific times of year that you have different pushes. It's kind of cyclical, depending on the organization and who the donors are. I wanted to ask you specifically about The Rides To Conquer Cancer? How does that play into the overall kind of fundraising efforts? So my dad's participated in it for a few years now. And I think it's incredible. It's like, the energy you see this, like in-person event, even during COVID There were like, unofficial ones where people were doing it independently and still raising the money. So I'd love to know how that plays into the efforts.
Jason
Yeah, right. It's remarkable. And like you mentioned, even during COVID, when you couldn't do things in person, we're doing like virtual rides, and people were doing their own events. And that just shows like the staying power that campaign has, that that event has, yeah. And it permeates through the whole organization. We've got in our office. There's a bike up there in the hallway on the wall, like it's a good reminder each day, just how important that is. And we, as far as like how we integrate donors throughout the organization. We really tried to make sure that the right donors are special thing. So there we usually try to stay away from at least on our side and marketing to some of those donors. Because we want to make sure that they're focused on that on that ride. Because it's a lot of money that they have to raise as a writer, they'll have a good group of supporters that are supporting them. So we try to be really respectful of that area. But more just like the sort of thought of that ride overall, and just how it's such a big community event. And that and that's what it really is. Now, it's more than The Princess Margaret. It's a community event is something that people look forward to each year, something they tell their friends about where they're not only fundraising, but they're talking about the cause they're talking about the friends they've made. And so it's, it's just something that's bigger than The Princess Margaret. Now, it's a really huge event,
Daniel
I see different groups, I was there in Niagara Falls at the finish line a couple of times. There's families, there's companies, there's like entire teams and groups, and there's a lot of energy. So it makes sense that it is a major event, it is a major fundraising initiative, for sure. But some of those people aren't necessarily going to want to be on a mailing list receiving stuff all year long, right, they're kind of inspired by those stories of maybe a loved one that as either recovered or passed away. And they now want to rally around this one event to make an impact. And then there's others who again, like they get looped into a group because a group from work is going right and, and they're doing it to support their colleagues and their team. They're so I guess, for different reasons. But it makes sense that again, you'd want to reengage people year after year and capture that energy again.
Jason
Yeah, and the ride team is really good at that re-engaging donors and keeping them informed of what's going on. And there are donors who are right donors, but also support and other ways to within the organization. So we're careful to make sure that for those people, they're getting the right information, but, if they're supporting three major gifts or through leadership or something, that we're communicating with them on different levels. So we have a really strong donor community and the right donors are a special part of that.
Daniel
That's awesome. When it comes to content that you consume, so in the marketing space, in the fundraising, Space Communications, are there any books, podcasts, blogs, or anything that you recommend or share?
Jason
You know, there's a magazine that Canadapost puts out called Insight. And it's excellent, it's so good. I honestly wish it came out more often. It really talks about some of the different things going on in direct marketing, things through their mail lives that you can post. But they really show a lot of different organizations who are creating groundbreaking campaigns by just being creative, and just communicating their messages in effective ways through the mail. So the content within the magazine is fantastic, is really good every month or rafting comes out. But also the actual magazine, the design on it is just excellent. Each month, like it has such an innovative cover design. And that usually links into what's going on within the magazine itself. But yeah, I can't say enough good things about that magazine. And a lot of times different ideas that I have is spurred on from seeing something within that magazine.
Daniel
Interesting. And that's just provided is it meant for specific clientele of Canada Posts are just open to anyone can kind of..
Jason
Anyone can subscribe. And if you go to the Canada Post site, you can sign up, I believe to get it delivered, but also, you can check it out digitally, too. So it's, it's really good. There's a few other just digital sites and one that I'm totally blanking on the name right now. But really just pulling in different ads from all over the world. I really like to for our marketing really not try to focus too much on what are other not for profits doing because a lot of the times are doing the same things. And what I tried to do is within our for profit, and I'm always saying I want to find out like what are the different car companies doing what's making them interesting? How can we tie that advertising into what we do at Princess Margaret? Right? If there's something cool like what's Apple doing that really connecting with people what Samsung is doing? So it's really it's not about the product itself. It's that method of communication, like what are they doing that's engaging people so that those are the kinds of things when I'm looking at those different ads. And just finding out, like, how can we tie that back to what we're doing is a lot of times people think of not for profit and you think, boring. So it's really just finding ways to be creative and sort of piggyback off of some of those campaigns.
Daniel
And that's really important is I often speak about the kind of cross-pollination between different sectors and different ideas like that. I think that's why being part of associations, groups, networking, with other marketers, doesn't mean they have to all be nonprofit marketers, but I'm sure even just sharing those learnings from successful campaigns from brands, because ultimately, they're appealing to the same end user, right? Different messaging, different branding, of course, but you still have to, it's all about attracting attention. Right, right, getting attention, and getting some kind of response or emotion. Right. So that's how it works. I want to ask you, before we wrap up about Canadian Marketing Association, so you've been on the nonprofit council for I believe, six years now, and you're now with a co-chair of the council. Tell us about kind of what the council does and why you're so passionate about being part of it.
Jason
Yeah, I think now going to my sixth or seventh year, and I always joke that by now I should have a special jacket for being around for a while. But it's just that the thought leadership within counsel is just so great. We have such a wide range of knowledge within counsel, where we have people who are at, like Toronto Public Library, we have different charities, we have people at George Brown College. So it's really hearing how some of the challenges different people are dealing with and the things that they're doing to overcome those challenges, or are some of them that they haven't been able to overcome yet. So I really love that file leadership and young people talking about the really different innovative things you're doing. But then also, I like a lot of different things that CMA puts on overall, as far as some of the morning like breakfast sessions, where you get to go in here different presentations and things outside of not-for-profits, when you have the brand counsel or market. In some of those presentations it for me, it's a really easy access point to say, like, Where can I gain knowledge, all within the CMA it's just a matter of attending different events, or also being part of counsel. So that's really why I've stayed on for so long. And great for networking. But really just the idea generation, it's probably one of the things I look forward to the most each month is just hearing what a lot of different people within CMA have to say. So, yeah, I don't know how much longer I'll keep going with it. As long as they'll have me around. But yeah, I'm really enjoying things with the CMA.
Daniel
I love the thought leadership piece, but also just the exchange with peers especially, we're in a virtual world now for things like this, but it actually allows us to bring together people from across the country, as the CMA is a national association. And I think it's a lot of times whether in a nonprofit or not in-house agency, you're kind of working in silos, right. So it's great to be able to exchange with those peers as often as possible, right?
Jason
And the one thing I would love to see within some of the CMA councils is really some more collaboration from across the country. We get that critique a little that criticism sometimes that we're allowed to Toronto centric. Valid point. Over the past few years, we've been able to have some people from Calgary and right now we have people in Winnipeg on council. But I'd like to see a little bit more involvement from right across the country, because I, I think we are missing out on some ideas and some challenges that different regions face. So yeah, so I would love to see that moving forward. But that's our long-term goal. So we'll, we'll try to keep getting the word out. And people on the West Coast east and, in central Canada, we love to see more involvement.
Daniel
Awesome. We’ll run some ads on this episode, which will target specifically people in other provinces. I love that to wrap up. And thank you so much, Jason, for all your contributions today. What's one piece of advice you would give to leaders in the nonprofit or charitable sector?
Jason
Don't be afraid to try something new and to possibly fall on your face with it. You're only going to get to that next level if you're trying new things and as far as I know, a lot of the time with different boards and, and management structures. A lot of times it's that if we invest in this by the end of fiscal We have to see a return. And just focusing on that single year, sort of solution to things. It's, it's very short-sighted, right? So just you got to look a little bit more long term like what's a three year plan, like, if we're launching a campaign, give it a few years to green, gain some traction with donors to get people interested, if you're planting a seed, you wouldn't expect the tree to pop up the next day, right? You got to nurture it and help it grow. It's really just trying to do things that are a little bit different, but then give them a little bit of time. Because a lot of times a not-for-profit, you want to see immediate returns, you can go back to your donors and your board and say look like we invested this and we have this much more in return. So it's, if you can get outside of that sort of single annual fiscal year thought process and also start to launch a few things that are a little bit more creative that hey, maybe work and maybe not, but take those learnings if it doesn't work, and then go back to the table and use that to help develop something new that's, that's really my best advice, especially in not for profit, if you got to keep innovating because everything dies.
Daniel
That's an amazing way to end the episode. Thank you so much, Jason.
