Growing with Kavita Dogra, Ontario Nonprofit Network
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In this episode Growth for Good, Daniel interviews Kavita, Communications and Development Manager at the Ontario Nonprofit Network (ONN), an independent network that supports the 58,000 nonprofits and charities in Ontario through policy work, advocacy, and services.
The conversation delves into the role of communications and development in the nonprofit sector. Kavita describes how communications and fundraising have similar goals but differ in their end results. Communications aims to inform, inspire, and raise awareness, while fundraising seeks conversions, such as donations or actions. They both aim to engage audiences and utilize storytelling, although they may employ different approaches. Since ONN primarily communicates with the sector rather than the general public, they operate as a business-to-business organization.
The conversation also covers Kavita's journey into the nonprofit sector, starting with her volunteer work for organizations like War Child, Oxfam, and Human Rights Watch. She explains her passion for social justice, which encompasses various causes such as climate, access to decent work, and removing barriers based on identities.
Daniel and Kavita discuss the challenges faced by nonprofits, including the cyclical nature of funding, the need for resilience, and the importance of sustainable work. They also touch upon the impact of the pandemic on the sector and how nonprofits demonstrated resilience and adaptability during the pandemic.
The episode also focuses on mobilizing people through communications and digital platforms. Kavita emphasizes the importance of finding a unique value proposition and curating relevant information in a crowded space. She highlights the need to distill complex messages into digestible content, considering the audience's attention span and preferred platforms. Kavita advises nonprofits to tailor their messages to each platform and understand their own audience to optimize engagement.
Both Daniel and Kavita recommend the importance of of meeting people where they are, simplifying communication, and adapting to different platforms and audience preferences. They emphasize the value of knowing what works for the target audience and avoiding the trap of only talking about the organization's own work. Kavita also mentions the value of being reactive and relevant on social media to avoid being overlooked.
Overall, the episode explores the role of communications and development in the nonprofit sector, highlights the challenges and resilience of nonprofits, and offers insights into effective mobilization through communications and digital platforms.
Kavita (she/her) has been in the nonprofit sector for over a decade and possesses a variety of communications skills. She is currently the Communications and Development Manager at Ontario Nonprofit Network. Kavita has spent years developing her digital engagement strategy skills and learning how to build and grow digital audiences. She is an intersectional feminist, an avid volunteer, passionate about equity and social justice, and a proud aunt. Kavita also co-chaired the committee that organized the Women’s March in Toronto (2017-2019).
Title: Communications and Development Manager, Ontario Nonprofit Network
Episode Transcript
Daniel
Welcome to growth for good. The show about amplifying impact for nonprofits, charities and social purpose businesses. I'm getting on Francavilla, a marketing advisor and brand strategist and your host. On this show I interview leaders at nonprofits and social enterprises, and the organizations that support them. We discuss the wins, challenges and best practices when it comes to communications, marketing, fundraising and impact. Let's dive into today's episode. Okay, well welcome Kavita to growth for good. Thanks so much for joining us.
Kavita
Thank you for having me.
Daniel
Awesome. So I want to get started with talking a little bit about your role at RNN. What is the Ontario Nonprofit Network, in a quick pitch?
Kavita
So we're an independent network for the 50,000 nonprofits in Ontario. And so we focus on policy work, advocacy and services to help the sector thrive.
Daniel
Amazing. And does that include charities as well as nonprofits?
Kavita
Yeah. So when we say nonprofits, it's an all encompassing term and Nonprofits and Charities.
Daniel
For people who have watched other episodes, we often switch between nonprofit charity, and then just the word organization because there's so many different types, including even social purpose businesses, and social enterprises and associations. So it all kind of tied together with ONN, referring to all Nonprofits and Charities in different words.
Kavita
It's a very diverse sector. And I think sometimes folks who are not in the sector don't realize that they are actually interacting with or getting services from a nonprofit. Because the diversity.
Daniel
So you're the communications and development manager right now at ONN. Can you kind of explain what that entails both and grouping communications with development?
Kavita
So talking about the link between communications and development. Development is also referred to as fundraising depending on the organization that you work with. I look at them as similar roles with a different end goal. So on the communication side of house, you're really trying to inform and inspire and raise awareness where as, with fundraising, the end goal, you want conversion, you want a donation, or you want someone to take an action, and that action doesn't always have to be tied to a financial ask it can be sign this petition, write a letter to an MPP, which is sort of more of a style that ONN would do is that call to action, read this report, share your pre budget submission, which is what we're doing right now. so I think, we're we're both trying to engage our audiences to take an action, and we go about it, perhaps in similar ways, a lot of storytelling but an in different ways as well.
Daniel
And it's interesting with being part of your organization, you're almost the B2B organization in the sense that your marketing and communications are tied towards other nonprofits or other other players in the sector. So I think that that's kind of, it's an important point to note, because it's a different style of communication, different tactics are used throughout in Europe
Kavita
Absolutely, we're often talking to the sector, we're not often talking to the general public.
Daniel
Right, amazing. So how did you end up in the nonprofit sector? And in your current role in communications do about the
Kavita
Do you want long version or?
Daniel
Yeah, I'd love to know your journey.
Kavita
So in my fourth year, undergrad, I was introduced to a few nonprofits, charities like War Child, Oxfam and Human Rights Watch. And I ended up being a volunteer for human rights, with their Human Rights Watch Canada's Film Festival. And I really fell in love with the work that they were doing. I was young and had energy and wanted to change the world. And that felt like the right sector to do that in at the time I was on the path to becoming a lawyer. And all of a sudden, that didn't feel like the right path. So after I graduated with an undergrad degree, it's sort of hard to get your first opportunities. So I took what I could get, which was in the corporate sector, and I knew right away that was not the right fit for me. So I went to school part time and did Fundraising Management at TMU and my first sort of role Little in the sector was that Ontario nature and I developed a love for turtles. But it wasn't long before I realized that I was perhaps better at and more interested in the communication side as opposed to the fundraising side of things. And it's been about a decade, probably more since then. And my roles have varied in the sector, but they've all included communications. And in the last few years, the focus has been a little more on digital engagement
Daniel
Coming into the role of communications, you were trained with the mindset of the nonprofit space, when it comes to fundraising, which is great, there's a lot of people, even some on the show that went into a traditional background or of branding and marketing for the business world, and then brought that to nonprofits. So yeah, it's always great to hear about the different paths that professionals in our space. So obviously, being here at a nonprofit organization, and you work and serve nonprofits, through ons, as well, you've been a volunteer and an activist yourself, I will tell us about some of the causes or issues that you're personally passionate about.
Kavita
Sure. So I'll cheat here and use an umbrella term called social justice, because it's hard for me to sort of pick one small thing, I think, advancing social justice, sort of, for me, includes, climate and includes, access to decent work for all workers. I want everyone to feel safe at work and at home. And I want barriers to opportunity and joy to be removed from people based on their identities. And I think that sort of utopian world doesn't exist unless we fight systems of oppression. And I think there's a lot of work to do, we've definitely come a long way we've made strides. But I think, what upsets me the most is that those strides can be taken away, based on political whim. And I don't think people's access to justice and opportunity and in their lives should be impacted by who's in power. But in order for that, not to be the reality, we would need a whole new way to organize our societies. But I'm for it, I think, let's try something different. This isn't working for everyone.
Daniel
Got it. You have the opportunity to serve or work with a lot of organizations that are filling gaps that are not currently being addressed. But that is the reality is this kind of we live in a very cyclical world where projects and funding is announced and taken away and promised and moved around and reallocated and even when something's committed doesn't always turn out the way that it was intended. So it is a constant evolution. It's great, I think for you and your role, you get to see so many organizations taking action, tens of thousands of them.
Kavita
Yeah, I think entering COVID, especially cringe word now, but it was unprecedented at the time. But we really saw the sector be so innovative, and do what they needed to do to serve their communities. And I think that's not appreciated as much as it should be. And we're very resilient, we're find ways to work around the barriers that are thrown at us, which are a lot of them. And funding is always an issue. And it's not as fulsome, but from a woman's perspective, we're trying for that policy change so to create a policy environment that makes it easier that enables nonprofits to do the work that they want to do, that they need to do.
Daniel
And more importantly, work that can be sustainable, because as you're very much aware, funding cycles, change and grant availability changes and things like that. So, on the first season of the show, we had Rohit from do good fundraising, who specifically focused on grant writing and applications. And during the pandemic, as you mentioned, there was a massive shift in what funding became available, right. So we had 1000s of organizations trying to pivot and adapt their own operations, and then adjust how they how they can serve differently based on what different funding became available. So I think there's a lot of pivoting and adapting, you mentioned kind of the idea of resilience in a sector. So that's that's a huge part. I think it just comes with being in the sector, right? Is that?
Kavita
Yeah, for better or for worse, we adapt well, and we pivot well, and it's, especially during COVID, there was a lot of okay, well, let's pivot to this to that, because this is what's going on. And it didn't allow for long term planning, because we didn't know what the next few months held. So now, as we sort of go back to planning longer term, I think there's COVID, has changed some things for the better. But other things not so much. So we have to do our work accordingly, in the in the new context with the new realities that exist.
Daniel
Absolutely. So if we take a kind of bigger picture view, and look at the whole idea of mobilizing people and kind of using communications and digital platforms to do that, what's kind of been your experience there, and what can you share about that,
Kavita
I will share that sometimes it feels like you're screaming into the void, and no one cares, but that's okay. I feel like that comes as part of the it's part of the territory. I think where you build your community is, where you'll see the most success, however you define success, in my personal life, it was very humbled to me it was if one person thought of something differently, or if I reached one person with new information about whether it was human trafficking, or child marriage, or whatever it was that I was raising awareness about, my goals were different. But when you work at an organization, whether it's a charity or nonprofit the the bar is a little bit higher. And, but I think there's obviously, social media has become a crowded space. But again, you have to think about what your value proposition is, and why should anybody follow you? What are you saying that's not interesting or different than what other people are not saying? And what are you bringing to the table? So I think there's value in being a space where other information is curated, there probably isn't anything that you're saying that isn't already on the internet. But if you're a one stop shop for and that's what we're trying to be for nonprofits, right? Is all the policy information that you want, need come to us, we'll provide it. So there there is value in curating what's on the Internet into one place, but also figuring out what's your message? What is it? Do for people why? Why as an organization, should someone follow you, but then why as a person, should I follow you? And I think every platform has something different to offer, it offers different opportunities to communicate different aspects of your work. And what I've learned over the years, with charities that do lots of different work lots of different projects, lots of it is hard for them to distill down, because: “wait, what do you do, oh, you work on this, and this and that”. And there has to be one time thread. And although you want to be proud of the work that you do, and the impact that you have, we're obsessed with communicating about impact. And so you want to do that. But you also don't want to confuse your audience. And I think that's an important role that comes plays is, well, what's the tying thread? What's connecting all of this together? Right? How do we connect the dots for people in an easy way? That's the other thing is that people's attention span is perhaps not what it used to be. Thanks to the internet. So in a quick way, like what's the key message without simplifying to the point where you're taking away the integrity of the work?
Daniel
That's a huge tip both for activists themselves as individuals and for organizations. I think that's a great thing to tie in. A lot of times, the perspective that you have is: you're informed on the issue, you understand why it's so important, you're ready to live and breathe it, but you're not necessarily thinking about meeting people where they're at right and and sometimes the extra passion and excitement and knowledge about a topic can get in the way from how you're simplifying that communication. And you've kind of given some have examples of that too and that comes down to what platforms people are on where they're paying most attention? And what type of content are they looking for? It's not always about sharing a 40 page report. Now, even though you know what's valuable in that report, it's really (I liked that you mentioned the word distill) distilling that down into digestible information that is appropriate for the audience and appropriate for the platform.
Kavita
What are the key messages, but also, knowing your own audience is important, right? ONNs audience are often policy folks, they will read longer things, they will read a long email, they will read a report. But it's what channels we give that information to you on. And when we're sharing something longer on Twitter how does that adapt? And I think I still see nonprofits sort of putting out the same message on all of their platforms and optimizing to each platform, which I understand it's a capacity. And it's sort of funny as you asked me the link between communications and development, depending on the organization, it might be the same department or the same human. So sometimes there isn't a lot of separation. And so I understand that, but I think we're there is capacity, you'll see the fruits of your labor in terms of engagement, if you really do pay attention to the channel your own audience, I know that not everybody tracks their the spaghetti that they're throwing at the wall perform, do people like the spaghetti or not. But again, a lot of that comes down to capacity, but there's value in knowing what's working for your audience? And even if what's working isn't what you actually want them to take away? It's how do you work with it? how do you bring people into the fold with those messages, and then push your own message, a lot of the times whether they're a nonprofit, or charity or organization, they fall into the trap of always talking about your own work, you're always just talking about yourself. And that's boring to a follower, right? if we think about how many folks own social media, is that who you follow is somebody who keeps talking about themselves. Not really, right. There's value in showing the work that you're doing. But I think there's a happy balance. Kara mentioned in her episode about being reactive, and the value of being reactive to what's going on, you have to be relevant. Otherwise, on social media, there's, again, you're gonna scream into the void, and nobody's going to engage. So how do you make the connection between what's going on? What's relevant for people in Ontario right now? And how do we jump into that conversation and say something that is meaningful, and not just? surface level?
Daniel
Exactly. And when you look at the idea of this shows about amplifying impact, looking at you spoke about who your audience is, meeting them where they're at, but also, what is that audience most likely to share with their followers as well. So when we talk about just talking about yourself, yes, a certain percentage of your content should do that, because you are your own best advocate in that case. But a lot of it could be about highlighting the people that you're supporting and highlighting, providing tailored content to your stakeholders into your audience, with the intention of them being able to share that
Kavita
Shareable content category.
Daniel
It is, and you mentioned the idea earlier of kind of curator, being a curator of all this knowledge and resources, which ONN is of course, but individual organizations and brands and leaders can be curators have what's happening with current events, what's happening in the sector, what's happening with their own communities that they serve, because people follow you for various reasons. One of those is that they, of course, align with the cause and support the work you do. But they also have people are very multi dimensional, right? Looking at how you can make those connections and curate for them. I think it's a great point.
Kavita
Yeah, and different things will interest different people, right. So I own and somebody might be really interested in our reimagining governance project, but then they're not as interested in our other policy work. So they may follow us because they like that one style of content, but hopefully they would see parallels between our other work and sort of being more engaged. But I think social media can sometimes those algorithms can be cruel. So, if people pass by your content a few times on Instagram, then they're not coming back because Instagram won't serve it up. So I think knowing that is important knowing your channel and how it's going to serve up your content, and knowing what Google likes, and how people get to your website because people have misconceptions I've often had folks within organizations be like, Well, I'm on the homepage, and I can't find it. That's not how most people are getting to this page. And it's too bad that you can't, we're giving people the link to the page, that's how they're gonna get there, or they're going to Google the words and be served up that page. So think, navigation, user experience, certainly things to think about. But there's lots of websites that need work in our sector. But again, it all comes down to capacity and funding. And I know that not everybody, not all organizations have that, especially frontline services, they're serving community. And that's their number one priority. So I understand why that's the case, I just hope for the better for, you get to websites look like they were made on Microsoft Word,
Daniel
Exactly. Sometimes, you may know that organization and the value they provide. But for someone who's first arriving on the website, let's say they found them in a directory, or someone referred them, they may not actually get to the meat and the value of that sometimes you may learn that their best resources come through newsletter and email newsletter, which you may have no idea of what comes into that newsletter until you've been a subscriber. So there's a lot of things that organizations can do to kind of tease that content, let people know, incentivize them to get on the list and also make that content, not only exclusive to that one location. So I love that you mentioned websites, because that's what I've been working with organizations for over a decade that are looking to have websites built. Sometimes they put all their eggs in that one basket. Yeah, sometimes their website is a complete afterthought, right? I've had clients, for example, in the past that have invested in like a video series or an annual report, but then it doesn't live somewhere where people can actually locate it, right. So to your point, being searchable, making the content digestible, and looking at what your audience is looking for. Ultimately, it's just a better use of resources, right?
Kavita
Oh, for sure. And again, it's like, if you can invest in it, you will see the fruits of that labor, right, if people can find your content more easily. If people can find your reports more easily, then they will support you, and they will champion your work, because it's going to be useful for them. So I went on recently, we redid our website. And it's like, if people can find our publications easier, it'll make it better for them. And so how do you use your website as a tool? It should be a tool that's amplifying and supporting your work.
Daniel
Yeah, it's a tool, and it's one tool.
Kavita
That’s one of the many tool that should be in your tool belt. But yeah,
Daniel
Exactly. So I want to talk about we kind of touched on some of the challenges here. But what are what are one or two challenges that you've experienced? Or you've kind of been part of either this current organization or any other that you've worked in?
Kavita
I mean, I think the sort of ongoing challenge will be ways to engage audiences. We know competition’s high. Everybody's online all the time, recent phone all the time you may be scrolling Instagram all the time, but how do you compete with cute animal videos? Or, viral dancing? tiktoks? How do you seep in? And perhaps that's not your audience.
Daniel
Yeah, and I think that your audience isn't there. That's one good point
Kavita
Maybe your audience isn’t watching dog videos, although I watch dog videos all day long, when I'm not working. But I think figuring out new ways keeping up with the platforms that are changing how their algorithms are changing how they want to serve up content, to the users on the platforms, I think that's going to continue to be a challenge because they change all the time, like all the algorithms are often changing and because the platform wants to serve up the user the content that they like, and that they want to engage most with, right so how do you become that? How do you even though, I want on Instagram account how has over 1000 followers, our posts don't have 1000 likes, you're never going to reach everybody that follows you. Most of them are not active very often. But, how do you right now for reaching 5% of our audience? How do you take that up? Or how do you keep them, keeping the audience that you have engaged, whatever percentage that is, is going to get harder. So and it has gotten harder? So how do we strategize to keep them there? And how do we, again, throw the spaghetti at the wall, but then see what sticks. And I think we have to, in communications, always keep thinking of new ideas, and bring back some old ideas that work, I think so much of what works on social is being authentic, and not being a brand be humans, show are one of our consistent top 10 pages is our staff page. People are curious about other people, so then show them the people give them insight into your organization. I mean, do it in a way that feels appropriate or whatever. But there's often our executive director who doesn't have a lot of time, but , I often encourage her it's like, share your reflections, people want them people want your learnings people, you’re in a position that's relatable to a lot of folks in the sector and, and your learnings are things that people can learn from and what are you thinking about? And what are you reflecting on, and people will see similarities, or they'll have ideas based on what you're sharing, because you're a person 101 and shares a blog, it's different than when Kathy shares a blog. Right. So I think that I think that human touch is is important. Even though we do policy work, and policy work doesn't lend itself to fun visuals so it's tough, but how do you make that content? How do you make your organization relatable, and, and social? I have tweeted out a picture of our dogs beyond National Dog Day or whatever, just to show the human side of the organization. So yeah, think that's, I don't even know if I answered your question.
Daniel
You did not only answer by talking about what the challenges are, but you gave very actionable tip, which is to show personality, behind the scenes, highlight your team. And from the perspective of you kind of mentioned maybe a leader or the executive director using their own voice and using their personal platforms. I think that goes a really long way today, because this whole trend of thought leadership is people are looking, who's the expert, who's someone who's a trusted source, even though as a leader, you may not consider yourself an expert, because everyone's continuously learning and evolving. People that we spoke about earlier offline, Paul Taylor recache, who was a previous guest as well, he was an executive director, who's now shifted to working in his own practice, people that actually have those voices and those personal brands, they will attract an audience that follows them from role to role to role. And that's super valuable, right? Because it's not just your current organization, but you're building credibility and authority and trust with the audience in general. And it helps to amplify your message ultimately, right there is there is benefit to that.
Kavita
Yeah. Because there's a clear values alignment with your work and what you personally stand for, and believe in, part of what makes them such attractive leaders and people follow them and their work and respect them is because they say the things that so many want to say, but don't say because of fear of repercussion, or funders or whatever it may be. So I think there's value and in being honest, and taking that risk, and saying the things that need to be said. And then, and then figuring out, well, how do we change that? It's not enough to just, identify the problem, which our sector is great at doing. There's lots of problems. But what's the solution? Or how do we work towards finding the solution? And how can we come together to make this better?
Daniel
And advocacy. You're not just declaring the problem but you're advocating for an issue or for a group or for community. I think there's power And then even if you don't have the answers, there's power in sharing this. And people can align and relate, which, like you mentioned, values alignment is if that's the goal of all of your communications, and that's a success is people aligning with you on a values level, for sure. So that being said, in the sector, we know with Nonprofits and Charities of all kinds, it's important to showcase our impact, showcase our successes, what are some wins that you've experienced, either at ONN, or with any of your organization's you've been a part of over the years that you'd like to share?
Kavita
From an ONN perspective, there's certainly policy wins. But since this is more communications, conversation, all sorts of talk about comms related wins. We recently, as I mentioned, redid our website, and that sometimes takes organizations a really long time. And we worked with an incredible team, to help us do that. And it feels like a win, because people are finding our stuff a little bit easier. We're seeing the results in in the metrics. And I know Google Analytics is changing GA for causing some stress, or people don't even know what it is, and it will cause stress in the future. But I think that felt like success, because we were able to then better showcase the work that our policy team is doing, by making it easier to find but also creating a user experience that made sense. Andwe certainly had accessibility in mind with colors and font size and all that stuff to be, Anna compliant. And so that certainly felt like felt like success. And our last survey report that launched it got some media coverage, which, again media is sort of coveted, still within the sector, and which to me is a is a double edge. It's great because it helps get your message across to a broader audience. Which is really important, especially for organizations like ONN, because we're talking about the value of the sector, we're talking about the size and the impact of the sector, and how our sector impacts everyone's lives in Ontario. And again, I think there's some misunderstanding of the impact of our sector and the size of our sector and how we are an economic contributor. I think it's funny, when I read your question about passion for this sector, well there's over 840,000 people that work in the sector, not everyone is actually in their role, because they're passionate about a cause we're an employer. Some people work in the sector, because it's a job, and it may be a good job. And they may feel good about the fact that they're working for a good cause. But they're not necessarily passionate about the cause. Was something a bit of a hard lesson. I've learned over the years. But, and I think sometimes that passion is exploited. Because you're passionate about the cause you're willing to go above and beyond and work life balance becomes an non existent thing.
Daniel
I'll jump in and say that we've, we've noticed a trend from multiple guests on the show who have talked about the risk of burnout in the sector, specifically. And that could be one of those reasons, but that's one of the one of the tips that a lot of the guests have shared is to focus on, actually taking care of yourself, because you can't do good work if you're not taking care of your own self as well. Can't make a positive impact as well.
Kavita
I mean, and it's funny, because we have been, like so many folks, especially on the front lines, like if you work at a women's shelter, it's hard to be like, “well, I need self care” in the face of someone who has immediate needs. And it's important, but I think inevitably becomes hard to put yourself before the community that you serve and the folks that you serve. And I think that's certainly is part of why burnout is happening and has always it's always been an issue in the sector. But I think that's where policy is important,unplugged sort of ONNs work again in terms of Making sure all workers have access to decent work. And that they are valued above and beyond the contributions that they make, you're a human, you're a person first, you have a life outside of your work. And, and that's important and that your care and your mental health and your physical health and all of those things are important to take care of
Daniel
Love that one of the common themes of growth for good so far for sure. So we'll wrap up by talking about if there's a source of inspiration or resource, whether it's a book or podcast, anything like that, obviously on and is a massive resource, your website, you can definitely dive into that as well. But is there anything that you turn to to kind of keep inspired or informed?
Kavita
Sure. Yeah, no shortage of PDFs to download on our website. It's funny, I used to joke about this at my previous role is that I didn't come into communications, because I was passionate about communications, it's because I was passionate about the cause that I worked for. And I just happen to be good at communication. So with our programs, stuff I used to joke about, I don't care about Instagram, inherently, it's just that I know what content will work there. So it's sort of funny, I don't look for inspiration in comms marketing, magazines. Of course, by virtue of my work, I need to keep up to date. And I need to know what's going on. So I certainly get the HubSpot newsletter and HootSuite and all those sorts of websites that give you other tools or reports, or here's what the algorithms are doing today. But most of my inspiration comes from people, like people move me I'm inspired by people's stories. I use that, not to forget why I came into the sector, like why do I care about social justice because of people and making sure that I'm reading or engaging with people from vast walks of life, and understanding what their path has been understanding what their sources of inspiration are, and just not losing sight of the bigger picture. I don't ever want to be in the sector and not care about the people in the sector, or the people that the sector aims to serve. Because then I've lost them. I've lost my way. So yeah, my inspiration certainly comes from people and their stories. And there's a lot of amazing people doing really amazing work. And one of the things I talk a lot about leadership, but I think, you don't have to be role of leadership or have a title that indicates leadership for you to be a leader for you to be someone who inspires and, and for leaders in the sector. I will say that whether you think it's the case or not people are looking up to you. So act accordingly.
Daniel
Amazing that that last part right, there is a perfect piece of advice for leaders of all kinds in the sector. So thank you so much, Kavita, for joining us on growth for good today.
Kavita
Thank you so much for having me. Awesome.
